Simplification strongly requested.

[scottwilkins]

The whole setup for pchelpware seems much too complicated for mass use. If this tool is truely ment to be a good replacement for products such as logmein.com or gotomypc.com, then it's got to be much simpler to setup, install and use for both the administrator and the users.

I've set this up and used it, but at a great amount of painstaking understanding of what needs to happen. I have a high enough level of understanding of both VNC and networking that I was surprized at how tedious it was. Instead of all the confusion, why not just make a simple http server that replaces the repeater? That web server/repeater should allow a user to both download the pc server end and install with few to no questions. And use a java viewer and/or download an exe viewer with few or no questions to use. The http server/repeater should be able to handle all traffic, setup and variables so the end user would never need to see or know the details.

The server/repeater itself should be simple too. Install, and you're ready to go. While changing ports and numerous trivial parameters are nice for the highly inclined, for the rest of us it's tedious drudge that is mostly unessicary. The most work should likely only be the setup of security and/or accounts by the administrator of the server/repeater and opening only one port on his gateway.

Seriously, try out logmein.com's free account and that's what this should mimic as much as possible.

[Illumina]

I couldn't agree more. If the purpose is really to be a replacement for Logmein / GoToMyPC etc., then a similar level of simplicity needs to be a central design goal.

I currently use SC and I'm quite happy with its functionality -- right now I don't see the advantage of using PCHelpware because it isn't intuitive to set up and doesn't offer any advantages to SC that I can discern. I realize that this is still in development, but I'm actually curious about what the goals of PCHelpware are in comparison to SC.

[bevtech]

Seems like it is impossible to please everyone..

Pchelpware seems to work better for me then single click ever did. The download is a complete package the user and viewer along with the exe creator are all in one package. The GUI is customizable.

The problem I am seeing is that nobody takes the time to read online manual and the step by steps. We seem to have alot of users that say it does not work without even bothering to read the manual. Like was stated it is a work in progress but so far with encryption built in along with file transfer and chat it is making good progress for only having one developer working on it..

[kaldag]

Very well put bevtech. I agree. Read the documents.

Ken

[redge]

would be really easy when NAT2NAT is integrated to PcHelpWare
should be transparent connection for any type of connection.
Simple to use like via repeater and fast connection like direct connection.
just wait...

and improved support of UPnP
http://www.intel.com/cd/ids/developer/a ... /index.htm

[scottwilkins]

Seems like it is impossible to please everyone..

Pchelpware seems to work better for me then single click ever did. The download is a complete package the user and viewer along with the exe creator are all in one package. The GUI is customizable.

The problem I am seeing is that nobody takes the time to read online manual and the step by steps. We seem to have alot of users that say it does not work without even bothering to read the manual. Like was stated it is a work in progress but so far with encryption built in along with file transfer and chat it is making good progress for only having one developer working on it..

Bev, you are a developer. You know PC's and their software inside and out. Most users DON'T! This product is not easy in any way shape or form. No, you can't please everyone, duh! But, if you can't produce something that gives a majority of users the best tool they can get, then you have not done a good job. I'm sorry it's that blunt, but that is the reality of computers. I hate to say it, but I'm changing from uvnc and it's versions to logmein.com due to the flat simplicity of it's model. I've walked complete PC idiots through the setup and use of logmein.com over the phone without any confusion on their part. I have yet to be able to do that with pchelpware. I find pchelpware easy for me to use, but I can't rely on it for the users I support. And no, they WON'T read the documents. That reason alone is paramount in my statement above and my concern over the direction of uvnc's efforts. I'm saddened by the lack of understanding on your part. I do hope you realize the errors in your attitude and remedy them quickly.

[scottwilkins]

Very well put bevtech. I agree. Read the documents.

Ken

You don't support many end users do you Ken? Users don't read documents. Reality sucks, I agree. Please don't asume too much next time, OK?

Like Illumina said, if it's not intuitive for an average user, it won't get used. Attitudes like yours will drive otherwize good projects like uvnc into the ground.

[UltraSam]

PCHelpware is not (yet) made for mass use

As you 'underline' it is still a little complicated to configure for tech-savvy people.

The primary goal of PCHelpware is to allow people that make remote assistance their job (or spare time occupation) to be able to FREELY and quite easely create their customized easy-remote-controle-package that they can distribute on their web site.
Once this little effort is done, they can remotly help others tech-savvy individuals in a matter of seconds.

And people making PC remote assistance are techy enought to understand the current tutorial. BTW, this tutorial is improving (web pages were updated a few days ago) and will continue to improve.

A free loginlein-like service based on preconfigured PCHelpware package (client and server and uvnc hosted repeater) accessible through a web page may be created some day if we have enought time for this.

[bevtech]

Scott,

I am not a dev. I am just a user that repairs pc.

[arc]

Well scott with an atittude like that I dont think many in this community will miss you. Obvioulsy you want all that a costly remote customer support package is able to provide(and probably more) without paying for it.
Clearly PChelpware is a work in progress and so far I'm impressed.
Im sure most people who now use it have at some point thought of some way of improving it and may have gone as far as to metion it here in the hope that it is adopted, developed and distrobuted for use.
I myself as I'm sure many other are, are more that gratefull for the time invested so far by it's developer and the service it now provides.
If I were a customer being supported by the likes of yourself I probably wouldn't stay with you too long as you seem to come across with an air of arrogance in your knowledge, belittleing those whom you purportedly seek to help.

[sure]

I would have to agree with Scott.
I've already noticed how there was not 1 functional manual for SC,
there are many sub-manuals, but not one is actually fully tested and functional, especially when using encryption.

It begins at the choices for compiling it. It is totally unclear which of the options are needed, or what is the best option, what version of the listening viewer needs to be used, and so on. Is it so hard to write down what choice of online compiler needs to be used when you are ON the site where you can do this?

I liked when SC just used a server and a viewer (listener). No passwords, no logins, no repeaters, no mess, just start at the server and I, the listener OK-ed the connection and it was up and running. It used to work really well for me, but then there came speed-updates, 'mirror' stuff and other 'drivers' (unclear who needs to install those, why doesn't it say that during install?), choices between different versions, third party encryption key-generators and it went downhill with support.

Someone needs to get an overview on SC and this new PcHelpWare, and create a decent wiki for it. This is, honestly, not going the way it should.

When I looked at the manuals for this project I'm surprised Scott is the only one complaining. I have no idea who is leading this, but it's worse than Linux man pages. You assume way too much advance knowledge. I too am an expert, but the way these manuals or step by step guides are set up is insane. Someone explains the reader how to download (like they're using a PC for the first time), then assumes prior knowledge about compilation, multiple servers, repeaters, LAN, etc.

What I think is so sad is that the code-base of uVNC is really exceptionally good, but the documentation and website are not. It's so unclear what version of what belongs to what, it's unexplained to the regular user. This causes a mess. Chaos.

[UltraSam]

Ok

Message received

There presumably won't be a Wiki but we gonna make a website lifting and page reorganization/clarification sooner than initialy planned.

On the other hand, feel free to submit some content (tutorials, code, posts on this forum to help people or even some thanks...)

They will be greatly appreciated

[jeanluc]

Okay, I registered username here just to post this single message.

I'm complete outsider and I have no previous experience with either SC or PCHW and this is how I see it. Take it as you will. I have no reason to either love or hate PCHW, I don't know the development history, I come from completely clean background as far as PCHW is concerned.

I've been using UVNC for my own use for some time now but today just happened that my mom needed computer help (no really, my mom) and I thought - now'd be a good idea to connect to her computer and see what's going on. I recalled that there was a utility for UVNC so I looked at the website. There was Pchelpware. I looked at the pages, downloaded the files and... gave up.

I work with computers. I administer FreeBSD server as a part of my job. I've been configuring god knows how many pieces of hardware and software during the years. I'm fairly certain I could configure, install and work with PCHW. But it's just too much hassle when all I want to do is help out my mom. If I'd have to support hundreds of users then maybe I'd give it a try. I have access to static IP's, I can punch holes in my firewalls and configure routers if needed but when I start doing those things I might as well instruct my mom install full featured VPN and UVNC on her computer and be done with that.

Manual on the website is not user manual, it's more like techical manual. It describes the fields and buttons. I can figure those out myself since I'm "pro". If I wasn't it wouldn't do me any good anyway because I wouldn't know what is dynalias or MD5. It doesn't describe the actual workflow and it doesn't tell what and in which order has to be done to get it working. Yes, there's that schema on the front page and I get the idea how it works in general. But as for install process and building the server or viewer - not.

This is what I would expect from PCHW-like project:

1. Automated install on both ends. Just look how Hamachi did it and how it took the VPN world by storm. After Hamachi came out it doesn't really make sense to hack with proprietary VPN or meddle with OpenVPN anymore. Just install Hamachi, form mutual network and be done with it. 5 minutes max, including download time. Generate unique certificates or whatever else is needed for secure/easy connection automatically. Transparently. If I want to use PCHW just once I don't want to spend half an hour preconfiguring it. It's not that I can't or that I expect "everything to be free and delivered on silver plate". I just want simplicity. Free doesn't have to be complicated.

2. Reasonable defaults. That I'm a "pro" or "dev" or "power user" doesn't mean that I want to configure and compile or build yet another thing. We all do that for work anyway on daily basis. Let there be one thing that doesn't require customisation. Just give me a binary which starts the viewer, lets me change the port (if needed) and set the password. Another binary (or same) for server which my mom can dowload, enter the address and password and click "connect". I can email or call her to tell those two things, I don't want to preconfigure anything. Let the application save entered settings so that next time my mom would just have to call me and tell me to start the viewer, she wants my help.

3. There should be no third point. Just download, execute on both sides.

And again, I urge the developers to look at how Hamachi does things. Maybe this has been talked before, I don't know, I haven't read the whole history in these forums. I apologise, if I repeat things or if this looks like excessive criticism, it's not meant to be.

Also, since I'm not using PCHW (for now, I think I walk my mom through Hamachi install and just connect to her computer via RDP) and not following these forums I may not respond here, if anyone wants to discuss or argue here with me. I probably don't have anything else useful to add, but if this forum forwards PM-s to e-mail, I should be able to receive messages.

[mjharless]

First off, it is free. I am using this product right now, this very moment, to work on a customers pc. Other than the occasional program hang, I think it is perfect. Users don't have to do anything but click to connect to me. It is super easy. I set up a static ip and configured the server once and now can deploy it anywhere via email or memory key easily.

Secondly, it is free.
No one wants to work at anything it seems, even if it is free. Sure it takes a few minutes to learn how to configure the server, but once you do, it works every time, no questions asked.

Third, I would like to add that it is free.

I say work on the functionality and stability and let the people that are too lazy to learn something new pay me to fix their computers.

Lastly, i---t i---s f---r---e---e.

Thank you to all who work on this product. By the way, I was contacted by logmein and they want $100+ per month for this type of service for my one man business. For casual use a few time a week you can't beat pchelpware.

p.s. you guessed it, it is free.

[bevtech]

Well I guess that I should not even have wrote the step by step. Since it is too simple or too complex in sections I did it to help users but I guess I am done writing documentation. Everyone complains about the documentation yet nobody takes the time to write or improve it. Users rarely even offer to even assist. I am frustrated and feed up with the lack of support to the documentation section. So I doubt I will write anymore.

Some basics understanding is required to use this software I myself took some time when I first starting using UVNC, SC and PCHELPWARE. I have been trying for about a year and a half to get the documentation section in process of improvement without success nobody will help they say they will but wont.. They only complain on the lack of it and that is it and forget that it is a work in progress and is completely FREE!!

I honestly feel like I am wasting my time on documentation anymore all I have gotten is grief from the pchelpware step by step. Did anyone actually ever try to write the documentation?? I can honestly answer yes to that question.. I agree that changes need to be made but I am sick of doing it myself..


If others would like to add some sections and explainations I will add them to the step by step I would love to have help

[mjharless]

My question is, if people cannot figure out how to configure pchelpware by using the step by step, then should they really even be using it? It's main use seems to be as a remote tech support tool. I wouldn't try to build a house for someone if I couldn't figure out how to use a hammer.

[bkctech]

bevtech,

I am willing to assist with a re-development of the Step-by-Step. I have already downloaded it and cleaned it up in Word. I have written some technical documentation in the past, but am by no means a professional tech writer. Just someone willing to assist.

However, my interest in doing so is two-fold. 1) I need to understand how to install and configure PCHW for use for friends, family, and the occasional customer requiring remote assistance. 2) To "give-back" to the community of PCHW users given I'll be (hopefully) benefiting form its use myself.

Can you or someone step me thru configuration? I have attempted it, but so far am unsuccessful. My computer(s) will be the viewers. My first Server will be my grandfathers computer which I just rebuilt and have sitting here next to me on my home network.

If you, or anyone who can, can work with me to understand PCHW better in regard to install and configuration, I will take the time to document the steps.

[Rudi De Vos]

bevtech,

It's not the documentation, but the software himself that need to be made simpler.
It's still to complicate for a lot of users.

The problem is finding the balance between power users, who want to control every parameter and the "dummy" users who want to download
and press a button...

[UltraSam]

Sure, it can be simplified...

But as is, and using the current Step by Step online doc, a tech individual can build his own Remote Support package to help his customers, friends, family...

FYI, the current Step-By-Step guide is more visible now:
http://uvnc.com/pchelpware/config/index.html

I think we also have the basis to make a simple and free remote support one-click-no-brainer service (like LogmeIn for instance)

We would need:

1. One or several repeaters running on uvnc server(s)
2. One web page to download the PCHW Server Package preconfigured/precompiled to connect to the repeater
3. One Web page to download the PCHW Viewer preconfigured to connect to the repeater

So by default we propose the NAT-2-NAT scheme with our own hosted repeater: no need to generate Server and Viewer exes/configs before download by the users

Usage:

1. The person that needs help downloads the Server Package, runs it and enter a unique ID-or-Password
2. The person that wants to help downloads the Viewer, runs it and enters the same unique ID-or-password
3. Both machines are connected through the repeater

Viewer+ID -> repeater-IDs-matching <- Server+ID

* Pros: ease of use. No brainer connection

* Cons: Confidentiality, as the data flows pass through our hosted repeater(s). UVNC server(s) bandwidth/CPU load. 24/7 availability to ensure...

[Rudi De Vos]

A little more is needed,

ID is not safe..

The wegpages should be used to create an account and password.
This account/password should be used to make connections to ensure
no dublicate ID can, exist.

The server hosting the repeater then should check if he can reach the
viewer and/or server and try to find a way to make a direct connections.

Only when nothing else work, data should be relayed by the repeater.

The best way to start is moving the network from PcHelpware and create
little connection modules that in combination with a 3the server setup an
encrypted tunnel.( Zero config)
When we work with a few people on this, it can be done in a few months.
Server part (cgi/repeater) should also run on linux...

Asking more developpers failed in the past, possible for this specific part
"network setup" we have better luck.
Any developpers with some network knowledge !!

[bevtech]

So it is looking like we need to have Step by Step for beginners and a Step by Step for advanced users??


The step by steps that I always wrote for complete begineers. That is why I started with where to find the it and focused on direct connection with little explanation.

With some help from more Users I am sure that we can make the Step by Step more appealing to both newbies as well as advanced users.